"Play the silence"

00:00:00: I had the feeling that i'd come from nowhere.

00:00:02: Just a mother and father, nothing else.

00:00:05: no history No family nor anything.

00:00:07: In a way I inherited The silence of my Father.

00:00:45: I'm Viola Grävenstein, journalist and lover of culture.

00:00:49: Those who know me are aware that i like to stand up for justice –and for inspiring people with big hearts!

00:00:57: That's why my podcast Kulturem War introduces extraordinary individuals who make the world a better place through who they are their ideas AND their actions.

00:01:09: In this episode I am joined by Steven Sarder from Paris.

00:01:14: Stephen was born in London eighty-two years ago.

00:01:17: He is a musician, retired lecturer and translator who has learned a great deal about life.

00:01:23: yet for long time he never truly knew who he was or whose family really were the reason a large part of his family was murdered In Auschwitz.

00:01:35: His father Who survived The Holocaust remained silent About it For the rest Of his Life leaving his son in the dark.

00:01:43: But some time ago Stephen Sardis's past caught up with him during a walk along the banks of the Rhine, Jutta Ermecke from Metmann happened to find a small metal plate... ...in the sand!

00:01:55: After some investigation it turned out to be the signatures stamp of his Jewish grandmother Marta Zade who had lived as an artist and Langenfeld Imichrät in the Rhineland between Cologne and Düsseldorf in Germany.

00:02:08: In nineteen forty-four, she her husband Hugo Zade and their daughter Ursula were murdered by the Nazis in Auschwitz.

00:02:17: Only the son survived in London.

00:02:19: Some time ago I had the opportunity to visit the grandchild Steven Zade at his adopted home of Paris And personally show him his grandmother's signature stamp.

00:02:30: It is only remaining object he has off here.

00:02:34: I spoke with him about his grandmother, what it was like to grow up as a Jewish descendant unable and not allowed to speak of this part in the past.

00:02:43: And how the silence surrounding the Holocaust shaped or dominated its own life.

00:02:49: Today he has written a book on his Jewish family Lay The Silence which retraces his family's footsteps.

00:02:59: For him, the silence about his family's origins and the guilt inherited from his father for being The only family survivor should never again define His life.

00:03:10: By writing this book I celebrated my family's Life instead of focusing on that death something That had led me to see and Define myself as a victim for many years.

00:03:21: i wanted To give My Family A voice because i celebrate life!

00:03:25: That has also set Me free says Stephen Sade.

00:03:29: I'm very pleased to have Steven Sade on my podcast called To Him.

00:03:33: Or, thank you for listening and Thank You For Allowing Me To Contribute Through Steven Sada's Story To Keeping The Memory Of Jewish Families Alive!

00:04:38: either something from one of the plays or Sonnet, but Shakespeare is one my real heroes.

00:04:47: Why do you like him so much?

00:04:50: Because... ...of his work and because he uses this incredible ability to encapsulate a complicated idea in three words, and that is incredible.

00:05:12: But I did play my clarinet on the boat that i worked on.

00:05:16: so i worked a boat um...in Paris And uh..I would tell the passengers That's In the underground part of the canal which Is two kilometers?

00:05:31: If they listen carefully They might hear The the ghost who plays the clarinet in a tunnel and then I would play my clarinet but they couldn't see me.

00:05:42: At least, they could not see at first.

00:05:44: so i did all kinds of things like that And told lot stories often crazy stories.

00:05:54: well...I liked very much to introduce humour.

00:05:58: even when talking about tragedy

00:06:00: Your holding is signature plate on your

00:06:03: hands.

00:06:04: Yes

00:06:04: What do you feel when you see it?

00:06:06: It's like touching the past.

00:06:09: I felt overwhelmed because not only did i know nothing about my father's family, but i didn't inherit anything Because everything was spoiliated Everything disappeared.

00:06:25: So this object that belonged to my grandmother is very, very moving.

00:06:36: It's very moving for me to hold it and look at because its like a link of all those things that I didn't know about or the history which was so elusive as my father could not talk about these things.

00:06:56: So yes!

00:06:58: And it is extraordinary.

00:07:02: This came up for me after having written the book.

00:07:07: Now, I thought that's it!

00:07:09: I've written my book... The story is there.... It's done and then i get an email from a lady called Viola who tells me she has something that belongs to my grandmother?

00:07:25: I didn't understand at first ...I thought you was talking about Stolpersteiner or something.

00:07:31: So the fact that somebody was walking along the Rhine and saw this thing, picked it up then kept I think for four years.

00:07:42: And met someone who knew about... Who is interested in the history of Jews from this part Germany.

00:07:49: That person gave me a lot help at beginning my writing project.

00:07:58: It's really extraordinary.

00:08:00: When I think about it, I find it hard to believe that this is all happening.

00:08:06: But yes!

00:08:06: It's wonderful.

00:08:07: It's like she was talking and now you have got something of her?

00:08:12: Yes!

00:08:13: In the first time when she spoke with me... ...I went into Auschwitz in Birkenhau.

00:08:21: There were three small stones which i wanted to leave.

00:08:28: The Jewish

00:08:29: tradition,

00:08:29: right?

00:08:30: It's a Jewish tradition.

00:08:31: They don't put flowers on graves they leave stones.

00:08:35: So in a way I was treating Birkenhau as a grave and iIwas all by myself because it Was very cold!

00:08:43: It was minus eighteen or something And so there were no visitors.

00:08:49: As you probably know Birkenhow is not like Auschwitz.

00:08:52: one has become a museum, Birkenhau was left to go to ruin.

00:09:00: And personally I find that ruins are much more eloquent than museums.

00:09:10: and being there in Birkenhau... Being this heart-freezing coal.. ...I began talk with the family i had never known!

00:09:23: Martha, this is extraordinary to be here.

00:09:30: And I told them that I was alive and... ...I told him it's important….

00:09:38: …and thought about a lot of things.

00:09:40: so there were in a strange way – I don't believe in ghosts or fandoms but I do believe they are communication with my dead grandparents.

00:09:52: And that was Adele Schmidt, so... That was a kind of conversation and having the signature plate is another conversation.

00:10:02: So these things are important.

00:10:06: they matter very much.

00:10:08: It's a way Of recuperating not even recuperating because I never had this.

00:10:15: it wasn't something i'd lost.

00:10:17: it Was something that i never knew i wasn't allowed to know.

00:10:22: So yes, very important.

00:10:24: You were not allowed to know what you mean exactly?

00:10:29: I mean that there was a taboo in the family... ...that we did NOT talk about Nazi Germany.

00:10:38: We did not talk about Germany from nineteen thirty-three to nineteen thirty nine.

00:10:46: It was an unwritten law.

00:10:49: Nobody said to me, we don't talk about these things.

00:10:52: But children are very perceptive and I knew that somehow this was a subject That iIwas not allowed To know About but it Was Very Difficult.

00:11:05: with hindsight can Understand that my father?

00:11:10: was starting A new life in England And He Wanted The old life to be the past and finished, we don't talk about that.

00:11:20: And you know...the new life.

00:11:22: but a problem for child is.

00:11:25: he perhaps needs to be nourished in some ways by the past.

00:11:30: it's very important.

00:11:31: I had the feeling i'd come from nowhere because I knew nothing!

00:11:43: discover I had cousins later on, but i was already twenty-one.

00:11:48: So yes the silence was imposed and if the book is called Play The Silence it's a reference to silence in music... In the way that we talk about space in relationship with sculpture for example a reference to the silence of my father, who was quite incapable of talking about these things.

00:12:18: Why did you write this book and why do call it Play The Silence?

00:12:23: I could maybe speak for four or five hours about what I wrote in that book!

00:12:31: It took me eight years.

00:12:32: yes yeah...it would not have been possible for me to write when my father was still alive.

00:12:41: I think it needed, for me you know...I need to be in a different space where i might feel guilty towards the dead but at least wouldn't feeling guilty toward living because writing book knew as a transgression.

00:12:59: To write the book had do research and go to Auschwitz and Wucz in Poland.

00:13:08: My father's family was in the ghetto, and so I was embarking on a project which was in direct contravention to the taboo that i'd known all my life.

00:13:24: And there is a strange phenomenon uh... Which involves transferring guilt from one person to another.

00:13:37: And my father was, he tried desperately to get his family to England between nineteen thirty-eight and nineteen thirty nine.

00:13:49: Um... Do you mean your grandparents?

00:13:50: Yeah!

00:13:51: He wanted to bring his sister Ursula, Martha & Hugo to England but in order do that at least one of them would have a work permit.

00:14:04: This was very difficult to get the work permit.

00:14:07: Well, my grandfather as you know was a doctor and there was apparently somebody in the Samuel family.

00:14:18: Salomon Samuel was the rabbi of Essen but he was close friend of my Grandfather Hugo Zardy And My father discovered that they were someone from the Samuel Family who had a position In a pharmacy chain boots very big English chemist job, and he went to see this person.

00:14:44: And explained the situation.

00:14:46: but the Samuel person said no it's nothing I can do.

00:14:49: i'm sorry.

00:14:50: so my father tried through the refugee channels and so on... But in the end war broke out.

00:14:58: there was not more communication or very little.

00:15:05: So, when I talk about the transmission of guilt... The guilt that my father felt.

00:15:13: Why me?

00:15:13: Yeah why should i survive and why should be only

00:15:17: one?".

00:15:17: And he felt guilty because he did not manage to get the other three members in his family into safety.

00:15:26: but it wasn't his fault obviously!

00:15:29: But you know guilt is rarely irrational a thing.

00:15:35: Is that the reason why he never talked about it?

00:15:38: Because, he felt like very guilty.

00:15:41: That was certainly a big part of yes and there's also this is such common things so many human beings feel this pain when they lose their family through napalm in Vietnam or whatever And in this case, gas chambers of Birkenau.

00:16:05: So it's a terrible pain that he must have felt and then couldn't deal with... ...and in the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties we didn't talk about post-traumatic disorder you know?

00:16:18: You were just left to fend for yourself so He wasn't able to do that!

00:16:24: So what did he

00:16:24: do?!

00:16:25: He closed up and....he became very secretive man.

00:16:30: Did

00:16:30: this have a certain impact on you and maybe also your mother that he closed up?

00:16:36: Of course.

00:16:37: The impact of my mother is it's difficult to know exactly how she felt about this because when I talked with her father, we mustn't forget how much they suffered.

00:16:54: so did everybody else.

00:16:55: there was no reason.

00:16:57: My mother was a very outgoing person.

00:16:59: She was funny, she had wonderful laugh... ...she was the life and soul of whatever party that's going on!

00:17:13: And I think marriage between my parents soured very much especially when they left London where my mother at least had her artist friends and so on.

00:17:30: As far as I'm concerned, the effect of my father's silence was catastrophic in a way because... ...I always felt there were something missing—something that I had to have….

00:17:43: …and I didn't know what it was!

00:17:46: You said you felt really lonely like you didn't anything about your family?

00:17:50: You felt single person without any relatives

00:17:54: right?!

00:17:55: Well, yes.

00:17:57: I had the feeling though that probably as a child wouldn't have expressed it in the same way but i'd come from nowhere just mother and father nothing else no history No family or anything.

00:18:12: And without being able to explain because at this age you don't think of psychological explanations obviously.

00:18:22: But I, yeah.

00:18:24: And in a way... ...I inherited the silence of my father.

00:18:28: I found conversation very difficult!

00:18:31: I found learning very difficult because….

00:18:36: …I was very much aware that I didn't have the right to know and had affected my life so many different ways.

00:18:45: but the wonderful thing is I think it's very important to talk about the wonderful things as well.

00:18:52: The wonderful thing is that, i managed to bring this family that i never knew... ...to life and i stopped thinking of myself as being Jewish because of Auschwitz That is to say Because Of Death In The Gas Chambers Of Josela Marta And Hugo.

00:19:13: This Is Your Family Right?

00:19:15: Yeah

00:19:16: Ursula was my aunt, Hugo and Marta were my father's parents.

00:19:25: By writing by taking on this project I suddenly realised that i was celebrating their lives rather than focusing And that was so important.

00:19:38: Let's come to Langenfeld, this is the town where your grandparents lived and they were very well known there.

00:19:45: I mean you are.

00:19:45: grandfather was a famous doctor one could say for children.

00:19:50: maybe You can tell us a little bit about his family.

00:19:52: what do you know about them?

00:19:54: Well it wasn't called Langenfield in those days.

00:19:56: It was called Immigrat and Imigrat i think got swallowed up by Langenfeld.

00:20:02: but my grandfather Hugo was a doctor.

00:20:07: He was in the German army, and he was awarded The Iron Cross.

00:20:15: You fought for Germany right?

00:20:17: Well...he wasn't fighting!

00:20:20: But it's just as important I suppose.

00:20:23: Personally i'm against warfare of any kind but that is another subject isn't?

00:20:31: So he set up his practice in Emichat.

00:20:34: And I think one of the reasons that they chose Emichhat Langenthed was because it was close to big towns like Cologne, so there were art galleries... My grandfather was a great music lover and that's a link for me as well!

00:20:51: Your grandmother studied arts at Düsseldorf

00:20:54: right?

00:20:54: My grandmother was an artist.

00:20:56: yes she painted, she sculpted.

00:20:59: She did a statue of the mayor, of Lagenfeldt.

00:21:04: Was it Langenfeldt or... No, Richard I can't remember!

00:21:09: Midsmacher?

00:21:10: Yes that's right The Mayor.

00:21:12: she did a portrait which i would have loved to see but..I couldn't find it anywhere.

00:21:17: so uh So she was an artist.

00:21:19: um and I think they had An extremely rich life.

00:21:24: the friends people who came To see them were all such interesting people.

00:21:31: There was the rabbi Samuel, a rabbi of Essen who was an astonishing man.

00:21:37: uh... Who said that if you have the choice not exactly the choice but If You're Dying and The Only Way You Can Survive is to eat pork will you eat pork?

00:21:48: And it's one thing I like about Jewish religion Is there are many rabbis That don't actually believe in God And I don't know if that was the case for the Rabbi Samuel.

00:22:03: He has got a very famous brother-in-law, i think?

00:22:07: The philosopher?

00:22:08: Yes someone Friedländer.

00:22:11: he was known as Minona which is anonymous backwards and he was very interested in the philosophy of Kant camp for children.

00:22:28: That's right, yes!

00:22:31: So he was busy writing... He wasn't making any money and my grandfather gave him free medical treatment but also gave him money.

00:22:43: there was obviously a very close bond between the two men And I eventually met a German publisher editor called Hartwood Geirken, because in the information that I managed to get about my family there were often references.

00:23:02: In brackets C-Hartwood Geerkin editor.

00:23:06: so i googled Hartwood geirkin and found an email address... And he was delighted!

00:23:15: To be in touch with the grandson of Hugo Zadeh Friedländer Mainona and was editing the complete works.

00:23:29: That's twenty-four big volumes, it is a huge enterprise!

00:23:34: So there were some kind of intellectual brother or sisterhood around the house in Emichat...

00:23:43: Solingerstraße?

00:23:45: Solingerstrasse which I visited.

00:23:48: my father when I think twelve or thirteen years old, decided he wanted to go and see the house again.

00:23:56: And so we went there... So i've seen the house which is good because it was demolished later on.

00:24:04: You saw from inside?

00:24:06: Or only outside?

00:24:07: No!

00:24:08: We were invited by people who lived here for toto and shlagzana coffee in the garden.

00:24:20: What

00:24:20: did it feel like to be in the house of your grandparents?

00:24:23: Well, I knew.

00:24:24: It was very important for my father and uh...I knew i had to really beyond my best behavior And to my utter dismay when The Tochter came out there Was a pineapple cake and I could not eat pineapple!

00:24:46: I hated pineapple.

00:24:47: that made me sick.

00:24:48: The smell of it was bad enough, but the habit in my mouth was impossible.

00:24:53: And I thought well this is a very important thing for my father and i can't refuse... ...the cake.

00:25:00: that would not be polite!

00:25:02: My parents who knew I didn't like pineapple forgot about that then intervened so.. ..I did the only thing I could think of which was to eat it !

00:25:12: For the first time in my life I enjoyed pineapple.

00:25:18: That's a strange story which one could interpret as one wishes.

00:25:25: Let us come back to your father, it was very emotional to be there... Did you see any reaction in his face?

00:25:32: No!

00:25:33: The only time I saw any reaction of an emotional kind is my Father's Face when we were in Israel and went to the Yad Vashem.

00:25:47: Thank you.

00:25:47: And there's this huge wall-to-wall picture of Auschwitz and I saw my father desperately looking at every single person in the picture, and i realized he was looking for his parents and his sister...and that's the only time I've seen ...that I had seen any kind of emotion.

00:26:14: Let's come back to your grandparents again.

00:26:17: They lived in Langenfeld and they had to move to Cologne, but apparently there were very well-known in Lachenfeld And they even touched with the mayor.

00:26:30: He treated his children as far I know.

00:26:35: Could you explain a little bit about what it meant To have this family?

00:26:46: Well, I went from a position of knowing nothing to a position or knowing at least a little.

00:26:55: And what i discovered was that the Tzade family in Emichat Was very involved In local life as you say my grandfather Hugo who is a pediatrician and He did, as patients the children of the mayor.

00:27:18: The Mayor I think was a very good man.

00:27:20: he had building projects where... ...he wanted to accommodate people who didn't have much money.

00:27:29: you know..the poor Of Emichat and Langenfeldt.

00:27:35: And uh....I got this strong impression that my grandfather was a very, very popular doctor and that the family... ...was well-known family in the local community.

00:27:49: And that is very comforting for me to actually have some kind of insight however small it is into the family unit there which I wasn't allowed to know about.

00:28:05: but not being allowed.

00:28:08: I don't hold against my father, because i understand why this had to be taboo.

00:28:15: And he has a very important job?

00:28:17: He helped people so that was like doing reasonable things!

00:28:23: Yes absolutely and not only worked in his own practice which is the house on Sonningerstrasse but he also worked in the Rechheit Hospital and He wrote a lot for The Medical Journals at that time.

00:28:41: So, you know...he was probably very good doctor.

00:28:44: And something I think about which i write about In the book Which is when they were finally deported to Łódź or Lodz in Poland

00:29:01: Before they had to move to Cologne, right?

00:29:03: That was where the were sent from Cologne.

00:29:08: They were forcibly moved by Emichat.

00:29:12: My grandfather was only allowed work in Jews so he worked at Jewish hospital which is his daughter Ursula who got a job there In nineteen forty-one or forty two, I can't remember.

00:29:33: They were sent to the ghetto in Lodz and one thing that i think about a lot The Yudinite leader of the man called Rumkovsky.

00:29:44: in One Of The More Famous Speeches That He Made In The Ghetto he said give me your children because they...he had been instructed children and elderly people to be sent to Channo, which was a camp where people were killed with exhaust fumes.

00:30:09: And so Rumkowski makes his speech and he says give me your children...and my grandfather who had spent his life as a doctor for children was being told that the children in the ghetto we're going eliminated, and the elderly people.

00:30:26: And it's very interesting because in... I didn't find very much in the archives of Lot but i did find certificates signed both by my aunt and grandfather and each one says that a person is incapacitated can not be moved deported, but for a children's doctor to hear that the children of the ghetto must be rounded up.

00:31:04: The way that Rumkowski managed do this because it actually happened was he excused the Jewish police force in the ghetto and said your children are okay We won't take your children.

00:31:21: So the only children who were taken, where... The other children said that Jewish police was easier for them to do their round-up.

00:31:32: Can you explain round up?

00:31:35: To gather together the elderly and the children to be sent to the extermination camp in Chandu.

00:31:43: so he tried to help somehow.

00:31:45: or did we something for the Children?

00:31:48: I don't know how much work, medical work he did in the ghetto with children because there was absolutely no documentation about this.

00:32:00: But knowing that he'd spent his working life as a doctor mainly working with children you know...I just imagine his reaction to that speech by Romkowski

00:32:14: In Langenfeld or... try to do a lot of things, um...to keep up the Erinnerungskultur and they even like have a street named after your grandfather.

00:32:31: What do you think about all this engagement?

00:32:34: Well it's good that these things are being done

00:32:39: in Stolpersteine in Cologne and even in Langfeld.

00:32:44: Yes!

00:32:45: I went alone.

00:32:47: I visited the Jewish hospital because i wanted to see where they lived and worked.

00:32:53: And at the same time, I saw the Stolpisch Dainer The fact that there's a street named after Hugo... ...I find it very good!

00:33:03: There was project in a hospital in Hechglatz To have memorial for my grandfather but apparently That never happened.

00:33:14: Yeah, there was something in the corona times.

00:33:16: They just I don't know why but they didn't follow it up.

00:33:21: So either.

00:33:21: no we have to inquire about it

00:33:23: Yes?

00:33:24: I mean that would be good if there were a memorial and hospital the hospital where he worked.

00:33:28: That would be wonderful yeah.

00:33:31: But yes towards your question The fact that the memory is not lost is very important

00:33:38: In general.

00:33:39: yes absolutely

00:33:41: so what do you think?

00:33:42: um Your grandparents are from Germany, they lived in Germany.

00:33:46: And how important is it for the Germans to speak about this time and what happened?

00:33:54: Do we have to do more about

00:33:56: it?".

00:33:57: I don't know...I don't like defining people in terms of groups or nationality because that's placing a limitation.

00:34:10: It is kind of negating our common humanity.

00:34:17: I prefer to think off people as individuals rather than as being German or French and so on, And i resist very strongly.

00:34:27: you know People say oh yes Poland Is an anti-Semitic country.

00:34:32: There's no such thing As an Anti-Semitic Country.

00:34:35: Um there are anti-semites in Poland But they're anti-semites everywhere.

00:34:41: And more importantly, there are racists everywhere and anti-Semitism is no different.

00:34:47: It's a form of racism.

00:34:50: so I certainly don't think that people in Germany today should feel any guilt about what happened in the nineteen thirties.

00:35:01: um i think thats probably psychologically not good thing.

00:35:09: I think we should spend more time thinking about the future, and you know how can avoid these things happening which of course in a way is nonsense because they always have happened.

00:35:21: They probably will as well but at least trying to understand it.

00:35:25: And i think that...to get to heart one has to forget boundaries.

00:35:33: It's vital!

00:35:35: Its very important.

00:35:37: Anti-Semitism is apparently coming up everywhere in the world.

00:35:43: Germany, it's very special about this topic and we have these concerning politics that are not easy sometimes to have a certain attitude towards things going on especially what happening in Israel, Gaza or Syria all of those countries around.

00:36:02: so... What do you think?

00:36:06: concerning this aspect, like we always have these guilt and say they should never happen again.

00:36:15: To plan on having a good future what should be not think?

00:36:20: Well I think Germany is rather like me... Thank you!

00:36:24: Yes because i inherited the guilt that my father felt Germany, I'm not quite sure what Germany means but there is very clearly a feeling that what happened was a total catastrophe and obviously it was the total catastrophe.

00:36:51: But for this to produce a feeling of guilt in individual German people doesn't make sense.

00:37:06: It's very difficult because we have this tendency to see the world in a kind of stereotype vision that, We see people as belonging to This group or That Group and that might be religious.

00:37:24: it Might Be cultural...it might be To do with nationalism.

00:37:29: And yet This is not how we should look at people.

00:37:33: And I do believe that the crux of the matter, Is to do with dehumanizing... ...I make a parallel between what happened in Germany In the nineteen thirties and What's happening today.

00:37:51: because The Germans were the German Jews or Jews in general were defined as a group, not as individuals and all these Jewish people they were rich.

00:38:09: They exploited... the nasty middle-aged Jewish men would seduce children and so on and so forth.

00:38:21: Now to me that kind of caricature is exactly the same as the idea that all Palestinians are terrorists.

00:38:34: Again, we're making judgments not about people but a group and they are misinformed!

00:38:44: And I think the only way forward... ...is to stop thinking in these terms.

00:38:52: But how do you do this?

00:38:54: We are human beings.

00:38:57: That's the basic thing, yes.

00:38:59: And we're all frail.

00:39:01: We all have our own violence... ...we had different ways of coping with it.

00:39:08: and Of course The other problem is political exploitation.. ..and I think there Is a political exploitation of this Shower in Israeli politics.

00:39:18: You know you cannot criticise us because of what we Have suffered!

00:39:22: And that's bullshit.

00:39:24: If you could say something to the people from Langenfeld, what kind of message would you give them?

00:39:31: and let's say young people?

00:39:37: I'd like to say that had things turned out differently... ...I might have lived in Langenfield.

00:39:44: No!

00:39:45: That is not sure of course.

00:39:47: So Langenfilm has an important place in my heart And I would say to the young people of Langenfeldt, as I will say to young people all over the world.

00:39:59: Think about human beings don't think about stereotypes.

00:40:03: What do you think?

00:40:04: that so many people in Langenfels try to give your family a name?

00:40:12: If i hadn't have written a book and not been in touch with Conta Schmitz You wouldn't heard me.

00:40:21: And now even more things is the signature plate.

00:40:25: Now there's artwork by my grandmother, I mean...I think this is wonderful!

00:40:30: It's it-it….

00:40:31: I had to stop the ball rolling and its still rolling –and that's fantastic!

00:40:38: And it makes people visible?

00:40:41: And it make people visible absolutely yes.

00:40:44: Yes That what it all about.

00:40:46: Step out of silence.

00:40:48: Yes exactly

00:40:50: Stop the silence somehow.

00:40:52: Well, there are different kinds of silence.

00:40:56: Silence can be wonderful.

00:40:58: that's silence when a piece of music comes to an end and I appreciate very much When The Conductor if it is an orchestra doesn't lower his battle right away he lets the silence surround.

00:41:20: There are silences that are uncomfortable, there is silence...that can be meditation.

00:41:29: That can in a way be cleansing?

00:41:33: There're silences which are imposed.

00:41:38: you not allowed to know this or that whatever.

00:41:44: and my feeling very much that in breaking The taboo in the family, we don't talk about this looking for Whatever I could find concerning.

00:42:04: This family instead of just brooding on Auschwitz and That more and more.

00:42:15: i'm appreciating silence when When silence is restorative?

00:42:22: When it's good when its beneficial.

00:42:26: And I don't feel that everything has changed, because it would be impossible.

00:42:34: But my perspectives concerning the family have shifted and become positive more than negative.

00:42:48: That i no longer need to define myself as being a Jew of German origin, and the family that perished in Auschwitz.

00:43:01: I don't anymore define myself in that

00:43:05: way.".

00:43:07: So there has been a liberation in that sense... And i dont think could have got there if not written my book.

00:43:19: I

00:43:21: don't know, but it's a nice

00:44:23: thought.